Crazy F'in Retail

How To Avoid Hiring a Toxic Employee 🤢

February 04, 2020 Brennan Decker / Alice Fontanos Season 1 Episode 1
Crazy F'in Retail
How To Avoid Hiring a Toxic Employee 🤢
Chapters
Crazy F'in Retail
How To Avoid Hiring a Toxic Employee 🤢
Feb 04, 2020 Season 1 Episode 1
Brennan Decker / Alice Fontanos

In this episode, we review the article "How To Avoid Hiring A Toxic Employee" by Christine Porath (hbr.org ; 02/03/16) https://hbr.org/2016/02/how-to-avoid-hiring-a-toxic-employee

We also mention a great YouTube video "The Best Recruiter at Google" located here: https://youtu.be/hvebAGerh88 


Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/crazyfinretail)

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we review the article "How To Avoid Hiring A Toxic Employee" by Christine Porath (hbr.org ; 02/03/16) https://hbr.org/2016/02/how-to-avoid-hiring-a-toxic-employee

We also mention a great YouTube video "The Best Recruiter at Google" located here: https://youtu.be/hvebAGerh88 


Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/crazyfinretail)

Intro:   0:02
retail is crazy. Your leadership doesn't have to be. This is crazy f in retail with Brennan and Alice.

Brennan:   0:20
Good evening, Alice. How are you?

Alice:   0:22
I'm good. How are you?

Brennan:   0:24
Good. Good. Um, so tonight we have how to avoid hiring a toxic employees. Ah, Harvard Business Review article. So excited to get this one done. I know. We talked a lot about it.

Alice:   0:37
I know. We definitely went back and forth. I think even in the few years that we've been working together, we pick up the phone and we talk about I made the worst mistake. Or, you know, and it's more hindsight 2020. So I'm reading this article. It just kind of hit home for me. You know, You think back to you know, the 15 years we both the work in a return. You think about all those promising interviews where you felt like this person's going to be a rock star, and then you hire them on and you're kind of like, Oh, what? That that I d'oh. You know, um, I remember, got my rookie year. My rookie year. I hired this individual and they were interviewing like a frickin god right there. telling you everything you want to hear. They're telling. You know, I'm great at this. I know how to do this. Bring them on. And I regretted it instantly. You know, this was something that did not want to take feedback, thought they knew every thing. And the moment I gave this person feedback, I was the bad person and tried to turn the entire team against me, you know, and we're gonna go through this article, but I'm pretty sure you've had a multiple situation like that occur before, right? I can't be the only one

Brennan:   1:57
is crazy like it's so good. I sound crazy saying this, but almost, you know that That saying if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. That's almost like I've almost had the interview, that experience with interviews like, you know, interviewing people, and especially as a store manager. You get these, get these people that come in here and there's just perfect interviews, right? Dressed perfectly, dressed the part and then they get in and and for one reason or another, they don't take feedback or, you know, they stopped showing up. We're just attendance issues. It's crazy to me like the better of the interview. Sometimes sometimes they find that sweet spot right where they have great energy and they're super engaged and they're asking questions. And they might fumble on their responses a little bit or not have the perfect answer. But

Alice:   2:54
those are

Brennan:   2:55
the ones that for me, in my experience, those are the associates in the manager's that have sometimes turn out the best. What do you think?

Alice:   3:03
You know, um, I think over the course of so many years and so many bad hires. Gosh, I'm jealous of you. You you've kind of known how to do all that, you know, Um, but I'm telling you, within every single role I've had, I've had multiple bad hires. But I think what's great is that even with the terrible hires, I kind of learned from him like, Oh, these are the traits I shall look for to avoid it. Okay, You know what? This person was extremely confident during the interview, but they couldn't really give me examples. Okay, those are, you know, just some things to look out for. So it's a trial and error, and I think in were I could be just talking about it myself. But I don't think I felt like I've been trained enoughto be able to find the right talent that I had to learn through trial and error. And now, 15 years later, I'm well, way better at it, right? I'm not a level well where I could see it from a mile away, but got 15 years. Holy cow. Why do we talk about for 15 years, right? And I think that's why we're doing this article like, we shouldn't have to continue to go through trial and error to find the better talent. Like I get it. Finding good people is like finding a piece of gold. You know, it's not very easy, but why do we have to get our teams too, you know, learned to their mistakes and how catastrophic it is for your business when you make that mistake, right? Yeah.

Brennan:   4:28
Yeah. I think you talked a lot about, um, about experience and how valuable interviewing experience is. And I tell you, that's when I when I really unlocked my ability of bringing acquiring great talent from my store in my my area, Um was when you know, I started people early with the interview process. I mean, you think about it. I'm pretty sure. You know, all organizations have have multiple multiple steps in the interview process. So how many is, um, Young manager is a brand new rookie manager. You know, I was doing everything I was doing, but I was just I'm gonna find the best. I want to make sure these people meet my standard, right. So I'm gonna do the phone screen process. I'm gonna do the first interview. Heck, I might even do the second review. Right? But what I found is that, you know, later on I started letting go and empowering my team, and kind of I obviously had that brand new manager started them off really early on with the phones, green process and having them to the phone screens for me. Um, and then, you know, have having maybe a more experienced manager to the first, the second interview, and then, you know, ah, I started the first interview and in the second interview would be done by, you know, myself, Or like, obviously, like my manager in training, right, to make sure and then giving each other feedback throughout the entire process. But what that did was yeah, it got other opinions in the mix and got other perspectives. But what it really did was it started getting that new manager experience very early on with participating in the interview process and through those phone screens, you know, doing 10 phone screens a week, right? I mean, how fast how fast you start building up that experience for that person. Oh, you know this phone's screen. They said this over the phone, but then when they sat with you, you said that they were a total dud, right? Or you said this one was great. I'm glad that that phone screen worked out. So what was the difference between phone, screen and phone? Screen beat and they start gather and they start collecting ideas and recognizing, you know, before even scheduled an interview. What the traits are of a potentially good, higher right?

Alice:   6:48
I love so well. Yeah, I got it. You know, we've all seen packets from the phones, green questions in the interview questions, and I think the thing I used to think about it like a man. His phone screen questions are so freaking generic. You ever think like that in our interview questions. Oh, my God. It's so generic that I feel like in the field now, people already know what the hell to say. They know exactly what to say. The key words to say the hot words and oh, and you know, like they already know what to say. Because those questions have been around for so freaking long. So I think, you know, like like I said, I I struggled. I'm gonna be straight up. I I was just strong advice. Let me tell you, I sought and it used to drive me. Oppa walks on like, this person's amazing. They entered every question, right? So, you know, I think covering this topic tonight, I think it's gonna give, like, you know, not just us but everybody else. More clarity on what to look for. Because you and I have both. But on the side of having some bad hires and the ones you regret to this day, I'm sure one

Brennan:   8:06
100% I mean, we could The list is long, but I think that the list of good hires and great promotions is even longer. Oh, and for both of us, I know, And I think recognizing early on, you know, how did not looking the first step is really looking at it like I'm letting this person into my house. And as you sit across from that table for me, it's always been This is Why would I give them for this person? The key to my house, The keys to my car? Well, let them watch my kids. Right? And when you approach it like that because that's what you're doing I mean, especially a member of management. Um, that person's running your business when you're not there, and you could you could have great hires, great associates, great man. Great. You could have great people in your store, But if you make a bad, higher and higher these toxic employees one of these talks of employees that the article talks about, you know they're gonna taking massive steps backwards every time that they work. And I know we all have had that employee right, that employees that you don't necessarily trust being in your store alone with that with your new hire, because you don't know what behaviors air, what attitude or energy they're feeding that sharing with that person. Um, one of the lines I really liked was the very first ones. The opening line Rudeness is like the common cold. It's contagious, spreads quickly and anyone could be a carrier. And I think if you if you replace rudeness with any, any trait or any attitude, um, positive or negative, I think it's like the common core, because positivity spreads the same way. Um and we just have to have to make sure that we are what water would are are what are our hires infecting our team with right positivity or negativity? So where were somebody? Take away in

Alice:   10:12
order. You know, I'm looking at the notes, and the first thing I wrote the first bullet point was rudeness is like a common cold. And you know what you think about the common cold is like, you know, you tell yourself, I'm gonna fight it. I'm gonna take, um, urgency. I'm gonna take some cough syrup. I'm gonna I'm gonna get in front of it. And then slowly but surely you get the sniffles, then your throat starts turning. Then you're like, Oh, God, I'm taking all this medication. I'm trying to fight it off. But it's taking me over right? And, like, literally, the opening sentence is talking about that. And I could think of almost every single bad hire I've hade and how it just instantly just spread like wildfire. I'll just like Oh my God, What an amazing analogy, right? You cough on somebody, they'll get it. Then you accidentally sneeze not into your hand and not into your arms. You give to the next person. You're right. It's so it you know, to me, I think it's even more contagious than the cold, right? The one time when he talks. I'm so sorry. Go ahead.

Brennan:   11:14
No, I was saying toxic employees. They definitely don't cover up their sneezes of the mouse that they almost coffin to the air freely trying to infect everyone, right?

Alice:   11:22
Right. And what's crazy? As I know, we're going to continue to talk about this, but like it's not even just coughing on your peers, your coughing on your manager. You're coughing on your business partners, your coffin on customers. It's kind of like, Oh my God, you could infect everybody, everybody and anybody that even just walks by you. I feel like, well, instantly get it. You know you could feel it the moment you walk into a store. You could feel at the moment you walk into an office like you just feel it, just like when you start getting the sniffles, you know, Um, so it was an amazing analogy and, you know, it's definitely his home. Every time, every time. I just look at that. I'm like, Oh, my God. Stop reminding me, You know, But, um, that was something that definitely hit home for me.

Brennan:   12:08
Absolutely. And, um, I love the questions, some of the questions. You know, this this article is packed with some great questions, and it's definitely structured around like the corporate or office environment. But I think if you read it, you can definitely apply the questions that includes to the retail environment. Right? Right. And what I love the most is ah, a lot of these questions come right back to emotional intelligence. Because if you think about that a toxic employees we rode up with him. It seems like everybody and their mama in the store knows that this is a toxic employees, but the person themselves, right? Right. So I think that really checking for emotional intelligence during the hiring process ensures that insures that you're bringing people into your business that have the ability to self reflect on black Tam. Maybe I did fuck that up. Maybe I wasn't asshole in that moment. Maybe I could have done this differently, right? Because we know those toxic employees. But not Alice. That was your fault. I don't know why Alice is being so hard on me today. Every time I work, Alice is calling me or Alice is tell asking for Maur Maur and more. Right.

Alice:   13:29
So let me ask you in an interview How the heck would you be ableto identify what there emotional intelligence is Is there any question that come up to your mind that you could ask?

Brennan:   13:43
Yeah, well, I think one of them right is what are some signals that you're under too much stress. I think that's a great That's right from the article. That's, um I think that makes them reflect on and be aware of how they're feeling. And when they felt stressed out, and maybe how their stress level impacts others around them. I guess that's what I would look for. And then, um, the behavioral issue questions. Right? Uh, does the candidate, because does the candidate take responsibility for behaviors? Results in outcomes, or they do they blame others? Um, there's also some great reference question reference Check questions, right? How emotionally intelligent does she seem? Is she able to read people and adjust accordingly? I mean, that's really one that is, she able to read people and adjust accordingly. That's really one that you could just ask straight up. Give me some examples of time that you've read someone. And how have you adjusted accordingly. Right. What kind of answers would you look for in that?

Alice:   14:50
Um, I think just I think the biggest thing with any question, I'd look for humility, right? Being able to say, Hey, you know what? I have the situation. I had this result. I have this confrontation or I have this feedback and, you know, at the moment in time, you know, he hurt my feelings. I was upset and I had to walk away. And this is how I dealt with it. And I came back and partner with my manager and so on and so forth, right? And I think the biggest thing that when I look at emotional intelligence is just the humility peace, because there are times when you react at like, you know, I'm normally with anger and off tangent when you get feedback sometimes and those are some things I was looking for. Is this person the moment they're confronted with some feedback, some hardships or just been called out for not performing to our expectations? How does that person react? How did they react? Right, So you could see sometimes, you know, like I remember during an interview, somebody asked me, You know, walk me through a time your peers called you out or, you know, held you responsible for some of the results that you had, you know? And it's kind of embarrassing, right? When somebody asks you, How did you take that feedback like, Oh, God, are you really asking me that? And for those people that don't really have that experience of getting feedback or they say, you know what? Like I've never been called out for anything, it's kind of like you need that, you know, you need that piece of the humble pie real quick. You know, those kind of thoughts I look for, but definitely around in motion tolerance, you know, automatically Look for humility within any of the stories and examples you tell me.

Brennan:   16:36
Nice. Yeah. And, um, I love the question. When have you failed? Right. And because I think you hit the nail on the head. Everyone can be calm and collected when they're winning. But how do you act when you're losing? We know retail. Every single day is a new day. Every day is a new competition. You got a new goal, right? You've got, um, tasks that you have to balance with the customers to which and then you have to help the customers toe to make the sales and meet the goal, right? I mean, I think retail can be a stressful environment. And let's be real. You're not always gonna win. And are you reflecting and saying, you know, this is what I could have done better. Are you reflecting early on and raise your hand and saying, Hey, Alice, you know, you've given me a long list of things that need to be done. Can you help me prioritize this and help me? I'm new at this. What should I do first? Are you able to raise your hand and say I need more direction. I mean, that's a big one, right? How many times if we may be promoted someone or had a new man manager? Member of management joined the team. And, you know, you talk about the humble pie, but being an experienced manager in a new situation, you don't want to be that rookie manager again. All right, But are you? So how many times do you not raise your hand and say, Can you help me with this before I fail? Right, Um, to maybe re director. Or just get additional training. You can't. You can't be afraid to say I don't know. Um, you know, another piece of this article I know that I love is one talks is one Toxic employees wipes out the gains for more than two superstars. In fact, a superstar defined as the top 1% of workers in terms of productivity ads about $5000 per year to the company's profits, while a toxic worker costs about 12,000 per year. Did you see that part of the article?

Alice:   18:45
You know, it's I'm I'm giggling over here cause those are the exact same notes I wrote. And you know, you and I both know we don't come across a lot of superstars, right? Those are the ones that we've infested so much time, and we've put them in the right spots. We've given them, be back. And they're the ideal people that you want on your team and talk about the article it says is divine. That top 1% are the of the workers. That's insane. So for one toxic employees causing two superstars toe leave, that's insane, right? And you know when we wouldn't You know it's crazy because you don't think of it like that, right? You know, I could tell you probably you know where you work and what you do. You could say, You know what? There's a handful of managers or handful of assistance or a handful of supers advisors that I could go directly to and say, Hey, hey, you need to work on this and that's it. That's it, right? They don't need much from you. They'll say Cool. Got it. What else? Right? The Maur employees that you have and that hurts you and the city exit. The statistics are there for one employee to get rid of two of those, you know, it gives me goose bumps, just even thinking like, Oh, my God, what would I do? Right? But that's kind of hard hitting evidence and for the toxic employees to cause that much loss for you and, you know, like it into retail sense. I think of labor payroll costs, right? If they're a full time employee, they eat up 40 hours a week. They're also the leader on duty, so they're also working with other people under them, and they're not productive. So now you think appear will cost for them. And then on the flip side, say, you know what you performance, manage them out. What if they they decide to sue? What if they decide to cause a lawsuit? What if they decide to contact HR every single every minute of the day? What if they call LP for every second every minute of the day? So everyone's time is precious, right? And we're all we all get paid to work and just think about everyone's salaries. That just adds up to all that. So that $12,000 a year kind of makes sense kind of a sense and, you know, in our roles were talking about profit. You know, the bid, the business that we run, it's all about profits. Right? So saying that it's like, Oh, my God. How the hell am I gonna get that back?

Brennan:   21:23
Yeah, You know, just listening to you talk. I just made me think, you know, maybe this is the problem. Maybe one of the problems. You know, I wonder how many managers and deal with this, you know, just listening to you Talk reminded me of so many conversations that we've had. We talk about you and you and I always talk about the top in the bottom, right? But how a lot of times the middle gets forgotten. So, you know, I guess I'm kind of rethinking my opinion on this article right now. I'm almost like you know what? Do your best during the interview process to avoid hiring toxic employees. Don't let him in the door. If you do let him in the door. And just like you said, just like I said, we all let him in the door. At some point, we d'oh move with a sense of purpose, An urgency to get them up or out. So to change, change the attitude or help him find a way to be successful somewhere else, right? You know what? Really? Really. Glenn, go.

Alice:   22:31
No, no, no. I just want to say, you know, Kash, like, literally not long ago, I had to, you know, part ways with an employee. The moment contacted this individual. They were calling me the B word. They were saying I wasn't fair, and this is ridiculous. But this person was stealing. This person was violating all of our policies. And then all I could think of is like, you know, you could yell at me. You're you know, it's fine. Like, OK, I've been yelled up before. It's all right. I think it was like check confirmed.

Brennan:   23:07
You are who you say you are. Who? I thought you

Alice:   23:10
Yes, Yes. I don't like to think of his What? My guy? Hire him. What did he ask him? Did we just hire him because they had experience at another retailer? Oh, because I think this burn Those hot person knows how to sing or it's kind of like, Are we even asking the right questions or we're just asking just to check it off, right? I'm sure some of the situation has occurred in your market as well. And you're what you do like you're just like, Oh, what we see in this guy in the first place.

Brennan:   23:42
Well, you know, you're you are absolutely right, and I don't know how this translates translates to retail 100%. I think it would more so translate maybe if you and my level, um, at the district area level. But I watched some amazing video, and I'll link it. It's a YouTube video. I'll link in the show notes when we get done, but it's it's I think it's like Google's head of HR or something like that, and they talk about their hiring process and at Google. And again, I probably am not remembering this correctly. But at Google, you can't make the hiring decision for your direct reports. So, Alice, you wouldn't be able to make the time decision for your store managers, and I wouldn't be able to make the hiring decisions for my store manager. So if I wanted to promote somebody, I would call you and say, Hey, Alice, I really see a lot of great promising things in this person. But can you interview him? Can you dive in and talk to him and just fill them out? Let's go through the process interview process with you, and you tell me what you want to. D'oh! I love that right, Because once you take, you know, because we all its retail, you know as much we always say, Don't be held hostage by your people, right? Plan for the whole higher early, right? We should be hiring. It's what? What month is February Right now, We should be hiring for Christmas right now, right? Because we're thinking about that. We're saying good thes sales associates that I hire right now. I'm gonna, you know, six months, I mean, that they're going to develop, they're gonna become, uh, they're gonna become solid sale associates. You know, nine months from now, maybe they're let ready for a supervisor position in a lower volume location and going to the Holiday Inn, a lower volume location in their first leadership role. Right? Right. That's the succession plan that we're thinking about. But we know it doesn't always happen like that. And we know that we have someone quit on black Friday, the week before black Friday and we're scrambling to put someone place right. And so what Google says is that Brennan, you can't hire that person to feel your You can't put out your own fire. Alice has to sign off on them. Like what if we did that? You know, right, How much of how much of the issues we have eliminated? We didn't make our own decisions because sometimes they're selfish. And sometimes we make the wrong ones out of need

Alice:   26:13
brain. Yeah, at a desperate, out of desperation. Tze and I think, you know, as I reflect on how it's been the last few years wherever I waas, it's some of the hires that we struggle with or we wish we didn't is because we hired based on need and out of desperation. So when you see a glimmer of a little bit of experience or a glimmer of a beautiful resume and all this stuff, you're like, Ooh, I could work with that right, because

Brennan:   26:45
let me pause your quick. It's not even a glimmer of a beautiful you, and I know it is. Hey, they do their name right. Unfortunately, I'm sorry,

Alice:   26:59
but it's the truth, right? And, you know, not associate aspect. How many people have we've worked with in the past? Had a stellar resume and it just didn't work out. I'm sure you could name just off the top of your head whether it wasn't on our role or above us, Right? They have a stellar resident, regional manager of the year or store manager of the year Rookie of the year. Oh, my God. All these accolades And you're just like, uh, you know, on paper, you look great. But, you know, we're realizing, you know, your leadership doesn't really translate over here. Or, you know, um, you're kind of old school and you don't take feet, you know what I mean? So I would challenge on that a little bit.

Brennan:   27:46
E Yes. Yeah, Well, here's the hard part, right? Here's the hard part is is that when we hire people out of need and desperation, do they get the training and development that they deserve? Oh, no. Oh, and how many times let's just be real as store manager to you and I rookie store managers early on in our careers did we really invest as much as we in hindsight, if we were to do it over again, did we invest what we would now? And the answer to me is no. I think that we owned. That is organizations I think organizations, especially in retail again. I've never had a corporate job, but I would just imagine that the business in a corporate office it doesn't necessarily ramp up the way that it does in a retail environment for those six weeks of holiday between Black Friday and Christmas. Yeah, right. Actually, so are we. Are we training? Are we are we invested? We have to take ownership as this store managers, district managers. And we're the quality control right? We have to be able to say, you know, hey, you're having a lot of turnover. Um, why? Like Let's like, I think you had you said it earlier. You like, Why did my store manager even hire this person? Well, that's a good question. Let's find out. Let's find out where the store manager went wrong. Let's do exactly like you said. Let's look at the interview guide. Let's look at the way they answered the questions. Let's review their training right? Let's review the comments that the store manager is put during their during their training sessions. And let's really see what that looked like. Did they have a culture of accountability in their store? Where did they surprise him one day when they start getting pressure? Because this happens also right. You got the calm, cool, collected buddy buddy store manager. Then all of a sudden, the heat gets turned up in an area that may be the store is underperforming. And then that buddy buddies toward manager just flips the script. 100% doesn't 1 80 all right. Have you ever had that happen?

Alice:   29:58
Oh, yeah, one too many times. And what are the Employees

Brennan:   30:01
Employees Act? How did the head of the associates in the secondary leadership in those stores respond when one day you're high five hugs and hanging out and having a Super Bowl parties together, and the next day you're giving everyone a piece yet, but

Alice:   30:15
that does. You know, I've seen that way too many times. I think in my experience where I'm like that, that makes no sense, like, Why are you doing that? Like you got to keep those two separate and well met. That's a completely different topic that we could completely go off a tangent. But we've seen it one way too many times. You know, I think I had also cost had a leader back in the day, had a child, beautiful child. Decided to make the schedule around her baby sitting needs and then had her employees baby sit when they go. Like what? What? Oh,

Brennan:   30:53
by I haven't heard that one.

Alice:   30:55
I talked. Yes.

Brennan:   30:56
Good. Would I learn something new every

Alice:   31:00
day? Does that impact morale? How does that impact the business? Right. So I'm just, like, why would you Yeah, you know, um, but like I said and I think those are the environment that we could turn a great employee toe toxic employees instantly. Great. So it it goes, you know, hand in hand. And I know it doesn't really go with article talking about, but those are some real life situations that we see occur, But we don't see them in that moment because we feel good in that moment. And we're just like by everybody, and it's kind of like what you do that you know?

Brennan:   31:33
Yeah. Um, you know, in the beginning, a great

Alice:   31:35
Oh, No, no, no, no, no. Go ahead.

Brennan:   31:38
Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, in the beginning, this was really about how to avoid hiring the toxic employees like there's just a little green radio active people out there waiting in line to get in our stores. But what I would say is what I think we should cover. And maybe in another episode, definitely another upside is how to avoid creating toxic employees. Because what I would say is that more often than not, we're not hiring tossing employees. We're creating them through lack of training, right, lack of maybe empowerment, right, lack of growth, going too much in one side of the spectrum, doing too buddy buddy, or being too hard on him and not celebrating enough wins. I mean, I really think that you got that top 1% those those top performers. And let's be real. I know we like to say that people people don't just show up and be great. Hey, these top performers that top 1% they don't They don't need much from you, is the leader. No, right. Those of those lucky hires that you get in there and they're just ultra motivated, ultra driven have ownership of the business, and they just want to come in and do great. And they're going to do great whether you're there or not. Let's just be real. Well, if what do

Alice:   32:59
you got it? Some of these questions and you know, And after this I kind of want to talk about how to avoid hiring the wrong people. And I think we could hit some bullet points. But I think about it if you ask the right questions because, yeah, we get lucky sometimes. But it's just asking the right questions, right? And digging in and asking situational questions and give me an example can walk me through that. Okay, give me another example. What happened to this person and not just, you know, just you know, God. Every time I make the knowledge I think of Shrek, I think of an onion, right? Shrek says. You know, I'm like an onion. You know, there's so many layers, so you know. But it's the same thing. It's like you gotta ask the question and it's the onion. You get the onion and then you peel back each layer and layer and layer as you asked the right follow up questions, right? And I think this really hits it on the hand about making sure we're asking the right questions. And it's not just asked a question just to check it off, but really dig in right. And it's just our opportunity to really figure out the rial candidate. Um, But there is one thing I wanted to hit earlier, and you talked about how Google HR hires you are stating that they have other, like, piers or partners really interview that candidate in the higher decision to somebody else. Yeah, definitely. Like that. Mean you need to talk about that little bit warm paper. Maybe not on this podcast, but, you know, later on, um,

Brennan:   34:24
let's do it. I'm with it.

Alice:   34:25
Um, But there was another philosophy that I kind of implemented about two years ago, finding the next manager in training. Who's the next in line? Why some people get promoted there. They're not. They're not quite ready yet, So something that's kind of out of the norm is something called like a panel interview. So I took a few meister managers. I gave them all situational based questions, and I told them. We're all gonna ask Question. We're all gonna ask. Follow up questions with every single question. On what? Your grade from a one through five. So if we all score really, really, like, you know, very similar than cool. We all agree on the candidate. But if one goes yet, this prince is amazing. And one of the tennis is, um uh I'm not very impressed with that it brought out. Okay, so both these people that are conducting the panel interview either they don't know how to correctly interview or something's missing, Right? How come this person favors this question more than this question? So it's really nice because it was a team effort to bring that person on board versus Oh, it was just my idea. So that's another way of doing it, right? But just getting more People know.

Brennan:   35:44
I think that well, and you know, just to go a little further there, if if you have store managers, right, let's say, um, let's say you did the panel interview thing right? And you did that with every secondary leaders that you have in your business. All right, I think I just I really believe like if me and you of you and I interviewed, which we actually do Interview of the district managers and training, right. I think that if we say this person's ago any boss, this person would be a great addition to our team. I feel like we'd be a little more invested, which I think I know we are in their development hate. So when they start to slip, we catch him right right before the boss before the boss sees them slip. We as peers play the net. So I think that, you know, I love the panel idea. I love that because that's creating a support, a support group for this new hire before they even joined the team. And if I was going, if I was in that new higher position, I would feel really good about joining the brand or, ah, we're on area where I knew that when I start, people already have my back, right, Like that's all

Alice:   37:06
right. And just think of the culture in that market or that company, right, because is not at the end of the day, the person that interviews you is not gonna be the person that develops you that's gonna be there to hold your hand. That's gonna be there for your constant beck and call. Whenever you have a question or you have an issue, you can always reach up to your peers first. So why not get your team, your store managers or your assistant managers, or your supervisors or your associates or high potential associates? Why not get them involved? So they're like, OK, you know what? I really like this person. But I didn't like this person. Let's bring on this guy or this gal and say, Like, You know what? We both believe in them. So it's not like, Oh, well, Brennan hired. And I don't know why Brennan hired him. Oh, so then somebody on your team's not invested, right? So, man, right? Actually, we love that. So, you know, um, as we just go along with this article, I kind of wanted to call it some points on how to avoid hiring, um, a toxic employees. So why not give our listeners just a few key points? But they could really jock down and give it a go. What do you think?

Brennan:   38:16
Yeah, yeah, you go ahead, E. I think that the article has a lot of great points, and I think that again. I think obviously, you know, the interview process is really that filter for toxic employees. So if you if you have a solid button down interview process and you're asking, digging and asking follow up questions, I think you're gonna avoid hiring a lot of the bad

Alice:   38:37
ones. Um ah, good question that I learned that I believe was part of this article was when I call your current or former employees, you're What would they tell me about you? Number one? I didn't ask. What would they say? It's when I call them. What would they say about you so they can't lie? So I've always loved that question. What about you?

Brennan:   39:08
No, I think I think that's definitely you know, words, matter and the way you were. The question matters, and I think when you ask you like that you're probably you're setting yourself up for success and to get a more honest answer from the from the person from the interviewee when you ask, Hey, if I If I call, who do you have listed as a reference John John over their warm or right. What's he going to say about you? Oh, yeah. You know, he's gonna say I'm great. I'm super puncture will always go above and beyond. Right, Because they don't think you're gonna call. Exactly. Hey, when I talked to John, right, it, I'm gonna call. Let's be honest, just no surprises what they're gonna say, right? I think I think that's a good one. You know, um, I like I really like the When have you failed? Question. I like this. The stress question. I really want to see ownership and self reflection. Self awareness. That's that's what I'm really looking for. Um, you know, in for me what I took away from this article is really the epiphany way had about 10 minutes ago, 15 minutes ago on this podcast is you know, you follow the interview process. This whole article has a lot of great points, has a lot of things that you can do in your in your store and with your team. But if you want to avoid hiring a toxic employees, just follow the interview process that your brand has set up. And more importantly, more employees Importantly, I would reflect. And when you have those toxic employees reflect on what when they became toxic and what the trigger waas? Because again, I think more often than we hire toxic employees. I think that we create them inadvertently through experiences that they have in our store with our leadership. And, um, that's something we have to take ownership off in the business. And then, lastly, you know it talked about that. Top 1% of employees. I would say that. Look at the top 1% of employees out there. All right, look at that. And if you go on linked in and you see all these great store manager's a great assistant managers and trying to recruit. But guess what? They already have jobs. The top employees already have jobs. They're not applying to your store five times. They're not calling you 15 times trying to set up an interview. Let's be real. They're not desperate. So if you want to quote unquote hire top performers first, you have to figure out what your attraction strategy is. And what I mean by that is, what kind of environment do you create in your store every single day where that future top 1% team member comes in and shops with you as a customer and says, Damn, I wanna work here. This place is popular, right? What are you doing to how are you treating your current team members? What are people saying about your leadership when you're not there? Are they going home and bragging to their mom or their brothers or their friends about how amazing it is to work at your store or they're going on the same man? My manager is a dick because that's not gonna track. I'm more focused. Yes, absolutely asked the questions. Let's avoid hiring these people, the toxic employees. But I think I think that especially in the retail environment, we have a bigger opportunity to not create toxic employees. What's your thoughts?

Alice:   43:10
You know, as you said that all I could think of. I have a God have too many thoughts, right? So Number one is it's the culture. And even during the interview process, when that Canada walks into the story, you don't know how these people look like, but how you invite them into your work space, whether it's an office or headquarters or on the field or in a store It's like checking yourself, right? Like when they walked into your store, Did you greet them? Say, Hey, how are you doing today? You know, So the person that's interviewing they already know how it feels. The moment you walk in my okay automatically. This is the expectation. And when I think of having a toxic employees when you're working too, so you don't feel like that Great. You don't feel like that. So they're like, all right, cool. That's expectations. So even after the interview, even though they had a great experience Tana, great things to say because they walk into the location like that that are cool. So this is the vibe, you know? So that's one of the thoughts I've had and just making sure that it comes back on you, you, the interviewer, you the one that creates the culture in your store. You the one that train and develop your team, you the one the whole team accountable. It's just comes down to what that leader does and how you know it just really comes down to that person, you know. And, um, one thing that I also want to add is, Do you remember about two years ago. I think you're still in San Diego. I think this was in El Centro. Do you remember when your palm desert it was somewhere? Remember when you had an amazing interview and you're like, You know, it might not work out here, but what did you end that interview with? Do you remember that? Anything I'm talking about

Brennan:   44:54
let me think for a second. Terrible memory. I've done a lot. And

Alice:   45:01
I know. So let's by saying about you. Remember when at the end of the interview, provided her feedback? Yeah. She was so bought into you. And why she wanted to come and work for you even more after that.

Brennan:   45:19
Yeah, Yeah, you know, Yeah, that was a great interview.

Alice:   45:23
How did you know about that? When you talk all the time, I I remember.

Brennan:   45:28
You know, I remember. You know, she, uh goodness, I forget what she did, but, you know,

Alice:   45:35
she wasn't She was more like a social media

Brennan:   45:37
was amazing. Yes, she was a social media. She was a maid. Incredible, actually. We're connected on Lincoln now, but, um, there was something I just gave her some kind of feedback. Just just room, too, you know, grow. Or maybe for the next interview that she was going to go to and, you know, she followed up And she I think she sent me an email or maybe a d m. And Lincoln and really just thanked me for the feedback and and couldn't wait to get in the door And that someone that we put into our manager training program. So, uh, man, yeah. You know, that's critical, though, right? I mean, your job one is to just hire good people. And if you don't have, if you have an opportunity to maybe help someone on their next interview, take it. If you're sitting with someone who is genuinely a great person and you have an opportunity to help that person next time around, give him the feedback, be comfortable with get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Because, you know, I know you and I have both been through interview process is in the past, and there's nothing worse than not getting feedback and then not getting the job right, because you want the job, right? But you don't know why you're not getting it. And so you So you don't know how where you need to improve. And this this young lady, she wanted a job really bad, right? And, you know, I'd liked she obviously joined our team, but, um, I think we need to understand that we have the ability to just give people feedback through our experiences and help them next

Alice:   47:29
time. Great. And you have a wonderful memory ideal. It's kind of crazy, isn't it? You like what? How did I how did you know about you know, And, um but those are just some good learnings. You know, those air. You know, when I was younger in high school, we used to talk about dropping jewels like that conversation that you and I had that it didn't impact my district. It didn't impact my my team my day at the time. But those are some gems, some jewels that you kind of go on with. Like I think me and you are always talking about feedback. And I think that culture we talk about is what we we we have to create that right. And why not? In the interview, this person wanted to come and work above us just because we gave them people at the end during an interview. We don't even know this person and say, Hey, you know what? Like you don't have experience here, and I you know, I just want to be very honest with you. These are the few things I probably work on. So then you're like, Okay, like, I know what to work on, Ray. And you know, that's a generation where, like, government, we go off on a completely different tangent. But just, like, wait, you and I crave that. If you mean you crave that, I would just say that our star managers

Brennan:   48:40
just, I think, come from a good place. That's my advice to everyone that wants to give feedback, right? If you're coming from a competitors can't come from a competitive place, right? You can't. You can't. Didn't try to pull someone down. And you gotta check your ego. Emotional intelligence. You got to know where you're coming from, right? You can't be giving feedback to try to nit pick someone and make them just maybe because they're doing great in some other area. You want to nit pick him and pull him down, right? We've seen that happen right all the time, But if you come from a good place and genuinely want to help people get better. I didn't say it. And the one caveat I would say it's just ask permission. Don't be that person That just goes now. Hey, you need to this different. Hey, you need to say Hey, you know, if you've been fully engaged in an interview, well as we should be or whatever conversation, you haven't being fully engaged at the end of it. Just ask. Hey, can I give you some feedback? How you feeling today? You feeling? Could can I give you some feedback? Right? Because you want people to be better. There is so much. There's so many opportunities. There's so much money out here is enough to go around, come from a place of abundance and just care about that person. And be honest,

Alice:   50:08
Great. And you already know my buzz where lately has been purposeful and just having a sense of purpose. And you're right. When you come from a genuine place, you don't have an agenda. You know, you just want to make everybody around you better, and you want to give them a Jule just a little bit as you progress. And sometimes I always think, you know, you said earlier, man. I learn something new every day, right? That was a saying for a very, very long time. You need to make sure you learn something a day, you know? And why can't we be that person? That somebody something that day, you know? And, um, you know, you're right. There's so many opportunities across where we want to be a selfish gosh. But I think when yourself less you attract great people. And again it comes back to you. Just doom. Or expect more from yourself, right? Attract the right.

Brennan:   50:58
Surround yourself with surround yourself with people, right? Surround you. And I like we push each other so crazy, right? But surround yourself with people that are gonna push you and not let you settle right? Don't settle and you're gonna be good. Don't settle so great. Great talking to you tonight. Anything you want to add Anything we met with the article or anything you want to add to this conversation.

Alice:   51:20
Like before we hop on it. I think we definitely will post this, um, link on our, um, with our podcast so our listeners could Definitely, really. Ah, You know, just go to the article with a quick, easy click. So yeah, that's all I had. And, uh, great episode. Thank you for listening to another episode of crazy F in retail. Like what you heard today. Subscribe and leave us a review on the podcast platform of your choice.